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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffLum Edwards Date: Aug 19, 2010 4:40pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: What Is Gone

Here is what I have seen that is now gone. If you know of other series please post here so we may have a better idea of what cannot be uploaded here.

Cinnamon Bear
Family Theater
The Shadow
Burns and Allen
Gangbusters
Voyage of the Scarlet Queen
The Witches Tale
The Falcon
On Stage
I was a communist for the FBI
Edgar Bergan Charlie McCarthy program
Jack Benny
Green Hornet
Phil Harris and Alice Faye
And (sigh) Lum and Abner.

This post was modified by Lum Edwards on 2010-08-19 23:40:34

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Poster: adamelijah Date: Aug 19, 2010 4:35pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

Of course, not all of these series may be gone because we can't post them. Some may have just panicked to beat the punch. I would add "The Shadow", "Family Theater", and "Cinnamon Bear"

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffLum Edwards Date: Aug 19, 2010 4:42pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

Yep Forgot those. Added them to the list. And you are right those series are not gone they just are not here on site. They are still available though other means. Trading is one option and there are a number of share group that I am certain will pick up the slack.

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Poster: Naked-Gord-Program Date: Aug 19, 2010 5:29pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

I'm not sure how some could have "panicked" since once uploaded to IA it's impossible for the uploader to pull it down - only IA can do that

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Poster: drspark61 Date: Aug 19, 2010 5:41pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

This would seem to be an example of that:

http://www.archive.org/details/SherlockHolmesAsReadByBasilRathbone

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Poster: abisynthe Date: Aug 21, 2010 11:04am
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

RSPT's counsel has submitted that "RSPT is the exclusive licensee from the respective rights holders of radio programs within the products identified in Exhibit A..., including as applicable, the rights to master recordings, scripts, trademarks, and name and likeness rights thereof (the "Copyrighted Programs"). RSPT's exclusive license rights include without limitation, (i) broadcast and internet rights, (ii) rights to reproduce market and sell, and (iii) use of related trademarks, name and likeness and promotional materials"

The rights holders and radio programs from their Exhibit A are:

1. Jack Benny
Trust C under Will of Jack Benny
2. Phil Harris - Alice Faye
Alice Fay Trust
3. The Green Hornet
The Green Hornet, Inc.
4. Frontier Gentleman
Janice Ellis O'Hare
5. Burns & Allen
Sandra Burns Luckman
6. Edgar Bergan & Charlie McCarthy
The Bergan Foundation
7. Gang Busters
RSPT LLC, successor in interest of Charles Michelson, Inc.
8. I Was a Communist for the FBI
Milton Geiger Estate
9. Lum and Abner
Chester Lauck, Jr.
10. On Stage
Elliot Lewis Estate
11. Sam Spade
RSPT LLC, successor in interest of Lawrence White (Regis Radio Corp.)
12. The Falcon
RSPT, LLC, successor in interest of Bernard Schubert
13. The Witch's Tale
Alonzo Deen Cole Estate

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Poster: abisynthe Date: Aug 21, 2010 1:42pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

This really gets confusing. It's obvious from the DMCA notice that despite Carl Amari's wide shots at Old Time Radio collecting, Radio Spirits only has acquired exclusive rights for a few titles. It appears the claims are largely personality and trademark rights, which doesn't affect public domain status.

There are a few reasons to believe that old time radio shows are public domain or have abandoned copyrights. I think if suits were to be brought for shows that were openly sold on reel to reel in the 1970's, it should have been then. Every library I ever went to had bootleg cassettes of all these contested works.

There are a lot of reasons to think that old time radio shows aren't public domain. Performance isn't legally publication. State common law copyright (whatever that is) may have some bearing until 2047.

The safe answer is that no old time radio is public domain.

Radio Spirits makes both arguments at the same time. If the titles they claim to have exclusive right to are infringing, so is half of it's catalog.

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Poster: adamelijah Date: Aug 21, 2010 6:32pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

Your explanation of Radio Spirits Double Standards is a good picture of why so many OTR MP3 sellers still sell The Shadow on CD. If Radio Spirits were to sue these sellers and they lost, they would see even more pop up.

If on the other hand, Radio Spirits won the case, they'd find the series they're offering limited to just the 15 or so they can claim trademark/copyright rights too. Thus a pyhric victory. And thus Radio Spirits has become the biggest proponents of the, "Heads, I win, Tales you lose" school of copyright law.

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Poster: abisynthe Date: Aug 21, 2010 6:50pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

I think we could say that Radio Spirits suing anyone would be a high risk, low profit activity. Likewise, so would be fighting their DMCA notices.

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Poster: adamelijah Date: Aug 21, 2010 7:03pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

Technically, Archive.org would have to fight their DMCA notices on this site.

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Poster: abisynthe Date: Nov 6, 2010 3:00am
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

Technically, the uploader would have to file a counternotice. I got 50 cents and a Budweiser. A federal court would dismiss on the basis of no jurisdiction over sound recordings prior to 1972.

I could probably self represent in that. Might take one minute.

I am not Jesus or Joan of Arc. You can get these materials from vendors for basically a copy fee.

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Poster: abisynthe Date: Aug 21, 2010 7:26pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

Technically, the posters of these articles would have to take action on the DMCA complaint.

It left me thinking. OK fine. I hope they don't sue me.

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Poster: coolcatdaddy Date: Aug 21, 2010 8:28pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

There are several issues at play here. There's the claims of RS, acting on copyrights they own and claims of estates that RS is acting on behalf of.

An estate could claim they own a series, but they might not - it could be in the PD or there could be another copyright owner. A licensee of the estate would be acting on what the estate tells them they have the rights to.

Again, part of the problem is that ownership isn't clear because some some additional research needs to be done or there are no records to clarify things.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffLum Edwards Date: Aug 21, 2010 2:30pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

Confusing is about the mildest term I have heard applied to OTR and copyrights. I am afraid to ask but where do you think that leaves us here? Do you think there is a chance that RS is abusing copyright laws with their present course of action. I for one think that at the time the shows were made there was no thought of needing to copyright the shows. Reruns were far in the future. If a show was replayed it was done again live. I have had some of the removed radio shows here for almost 5 years with nary a problem til now.

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Poster: abisynthe Date: Aug 21, 2010 4:09pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

I think it leaves us with a rather empty old time radio section, some big holes in the OTRR collections, and no one that can find any profit in opposing Radio Spirits.

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Poster: coolcatdaddy Date: Aug 23, 2010 5:27am
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

I did a bit of digging around.

The opinions are mixed on copyrights on otr. The copyright act revision in the early 1970s restored protection for unpublished works. In other words, if someone could prove they were the true copyright owner, they could protect their work.

With otr, the actual copyright owner could be the network, the sponsor, an ad agency or the star of the show - it depends on the contract made at the time the show was done.

With Benny's show for example, I found two original contracts with American Tobacco from the 40s and 50s. In one case, American Tobacco owned the show, with Benny offering services on a work for hire basis. In the other, CBS owned the program (except the commercials) and Benny was in a work for hire situation with the network.

One of the reasons Benny moved to CBS was to gain ownership of his program. I'm going on the supposition that ownership of Benny's show was transferred to him by CBS. However, did CBS obtain all rights to Benny's NBC American Tobacco programs and give this over to Benny? Did they also obtain rights to his shows from the 30s and 40s for other sponsors, like Jello or Ginger Ale?

Complicating matters too were the fees that were paid various union members for the broadcasts and the original intention that the programs wouldn't be rebroadcast past the original airings. CBS's ownership of Benny's show in the fifties, at least my reading of the original contract, was mainly aimed at their ownership of the show's concept and characters and maintaining their ability to replay parts of the programs in retrospectives and the like.

I've not seen contracts for Jack tv show, but I'm guessing he might have set up his own production company as the owner, contracting with the network to give them a finished product. These types of arrangements were more common in the tv years, especially when the movie studios started producing series for tv in the later 50s.

Many otr programs are clearly public domain. In some cases, the company or agency that owned a program no longer exists. Or, in the case of syndicated programs which were published on discs and sent to stations, the copyright owner didn't register or renew them. In other cases, the copyright owner, when given the opportunity when the law was renewed, took no interest in claiming rights to the property.

It appears that RS is, in some cases, making a claim that they own copyright or act as an agent for a copyright holder. In other cases, such as Benny, they're saying his estate has a right to his image and likeness, even in programs where his original contracts as a work for hire employee do not clearly state any ownership in the programs.

I checked a listing of Benny's archival collections at a university in California - his later papers, when he worked for CBS and American Tobacco, appear to include this kind of administrative material. Earlier in his career, there don't seem to be folders that would include contracts or legal material related to his work for Ginger Ale or Jello, though the papers might actually be there.

Benny probably had all the legal paperwork for his American Tobacco years because of his dealings with the IRS when his show went to CBS. It was a big legal mess he had to deal with for a few years.

Unfortunately, much of who really owns otr shows really comes down to original contracts for series or individual shows and many of those documents no longer exist. Of course, there are other factors, like the copyright law in effect at the time and revisions or actions taken by individuals or companies to protect their works.

Rights to the trademark, likeness and publicity of an individual are a different legal matter. I haven't seen any legal precedent indicating that publicity rights trumped any free and clear distribution or sale of public domain films, television shows and the like.

If these types of rights were upheld, it could basically shut down archive.org with claims from the estate of any big (or even minor) star or performer in a film, radio show or recording. For that matter, estates from different performers could have conflicting claims against other estates.

Rather something of a mess, don't you think?




This post was modified by coolcatdaddy on 2010-08-22 00:12:37

This post was modified by coolcatdaddy on 2010-08-23 12:27:06

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Poster: abisynthe Date: Aug 21, 2010 5:07pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

I don't see how public domain status would be affected by performer arrangements. I know defunct content rights owners don't matter to whether something is public domain or not.

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Poster: coolcatdaddy Date: Aug 21, 2010 8:26pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

Public domain status shouldn't be affected by performer's arrangements or union contracts, but would be something that would need to be worked out or considered when licensing or using copyrighted material.

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Poster: drspark61 Date: Aug 21, 2010 2:27pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

If a movement was afoot to challenge RS in court, I would gladly dontate and join an effort to encourage others to do so.

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Poster: abisynthe Date: Aug 21, 2010 10:43pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

Nah? What for? They might even be able to make the claims stick.


This post was modified by abisynthe on 2010-08-22 05:43:32

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Poster: adamelijah Date: Aug 21, 2010 5:59pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

An MP3 Seller might have a cause of action to challenge them. They'll probably serve notice on OTRCat. So far, they've mostly gone along with requests to pull items from their catalogue. (They don't sell the Shadow or Family Theater.) But Sam Spade is their #2 seller.

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Poster: adamelijah Date: Aug 21, 2010 6:05pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

I should also add that based on this, it looks like Radio Spirit didn't pull "Voyage of the Scarlet Queen" and looks like fan panic.

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Poster: abisynthe Date: Aug 21, 2010 8:46pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

I wouldn't call it panic. I'd call it legally safe.

Something changed here now. Radio Spirits has sworn under penalty of perjury that they own the materials they issued the DMCA takedown notices for. That's different from vague threats from Carl Amari when his list of ownership in radio programs was a trade secret and Radio Spirits was taking broad potshots.

I think we have to question whether this section of the Internet Archive is a good idea and whether anyone can say that any of this stuff is public domain. The best I could say is that it was mostly treated that way for 50-70 years.

Now we have lawyers saying "Ain't so McGee" and swearing to it. The claims may be bogus, but they are swearing to it and I can't swear back, just perhaps curse a bit.

Can you attack public domain status from state common law copyright? A 2005 New York case proved you can.

http://importance.corante.com/archives/2005/04/05/new_york_common_law_copyright_protects_50year_old_sound_recordings.php

This sound recording is protected by New York law even though it is in the public domain in England where it was made.

The copyright law around sound recordings is just too screwy. I think this section of the Internet Archive is perhaps ill advised.


This post was modified by abisynthe on 2010-08-22 03:46:19

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Poster: coolcatdaddy Date: Aug 21, 2010 8:37pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone



"I think we have to question whether this section of the Internet Archive is a good idea and whether anyone can say that any of this stuff is public domain. The best I could say is that it was mostly treated that way for 50-70 years."

That's a bit hasty, in my opinion.

There are some otr programs that have clear lines of copyright and ownership, usually syndicated programs that were run for several years in the otr era but sometimes network shows where the characters and scripts were protected by the owners over time.

However, there are many others that can be pretty safely looked at as pd material. There are programs produced for government agencies or syndicated programs where the company that produced it and/or sponsored it doesn't exist anymore.

"Something changed here now. Radio Spirits has sworn under penalty of perjury that they own the materials they issued the DMCA takedown notices for. That's different from vague threats from Carl Amari when his list of ownership in radio programs was a trade secret and Radio Spirits was taking broad potshots."

RS's list of shows they control is still proprietary information - they don't publish it. You're only seeing the list of programs in these threads that they've chosen to claim rights on right now.

In some cases, RS is acting on shows they own the copyright on, which they've purchased from other parties. In others, they're saying that an estate or entity that they license from is telling them that they control a particular series or set of shows.






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Poster: coolcatdaddy Date: Aug 21, 2010 8:47pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

On "Scarlett Queen", I don't know if one could call pulling of it a "fan panic" or "legally safe" or something else.

It was a series that aired on Mutual and doesn't seem to be connected with any of the claims being made by RS.

This was a sustaining series that might have been owned by Mutual.

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Poster: abisynthe Date: Aug 21, 2010 9:33pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

Yeah, that panicked fan would be me. That and a dozen other shows. Who needs a hassle, even if it's just a DMCA takedown in your email?

Old Time Radio doesn't pay my bills or feed my dog.


This post was modified by abisynthe on 2010-08-22 04:33:21

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Poster: coolcatdaddy Date: Aug 21, 2010 8:59pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

My goodness, absynthe ... Google Books, Google News and ProQuest are your friends. Using those tools, you can at least get information on the origins of a program and do some further digging into who the copyright owner might be. In some cases, you might find that the owner is likely a defunct ad agency, syndication company and/or sponsor.

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Poster: abisynthe Date: Aug 21, 2010 9:14pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

If the owner is a defunct agency or sponsor, that doesn't make the material public domain.

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Poster: coolcatdaddy Date: Aug 21, 2010 9:44pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

I'm not a lawyer or legal expert, but my own opinion is that this leaves the work in public domain by default. If the entity that created the work was dissolved, with no transfer of ownership of rights to another party in bankruptcy court, or if the owner left no heirs, then the work is abandoned - there's no one left to claim any rights.

It has to be considered in the context of the original intent of copyright and public domain - copyright protects owners of original works, while public domain protects the public in the dissemination of ideas. In the case of a copyrighted work where the author or owner no longer exists, there is no owner to protect; the public right to dissemination of ideas should take precedence.

This would be different from a work where the owner still exists and hasn't made any claims to the rights. They could still do so in the future. However, they'd might (and I stress _might_) have a weaker case if the work was distributed openly, they were aware of their copyright ownership, and they took no action to protect their rights.

Copyright law is sometimes a gray area, particularly when it comes to works where ownership is abandoned, transferred, or is ambiguous. With archive.org or other sites and outlets for material, it's a matter of assessing the risk of potential owners making claims and how actions of owners or possible owners might be taken into account in a court.



This post was modified by coolcatdaddy on 2010-08-22 04:44:53

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Poster: abisynthe Date: Aug 21, 2010 10:49pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

Given our non profit sharing of old time radio shows didn't give us love, wealth or happiness... this casual activity shouldn't leave us defending anything.


This post was modified by abisynthe on 2010-08-22 05:49:36

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Poster: adamelijah Date: Aug 21, 2010 10:51pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

I suppose if you look at it like that, there's not a reason to be mad about it. I guess I look at it differently. I think their claims are almost certainly legally invalid. Beyond that, I think that Radio Spirit's actions are a threat to the survival part of our American culture, our heritage. If the only way that people can get Old Time Radio in the future is through paying for Radio Spirit's overpriced sets, much of this will be lost to future generations. It's lot easier to get into something free, than something that cost an absurd amount of money.

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Poster: abisynthe Date: Aug 22, 2010 1:13am
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

The scope of copyright and it's impact on culture are irrelevant. Money is irrelevant.



This post was modified by abisynthe on 2010-08-22 08:13:56

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Poster: Mr Filow Date: Aug 22, 2010 6:04pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone


I suggest you all make digital copies of your Radio Spirits Material (your legal backup copy) and then dump all of the Radio Spirits material back into the market [Ebay, Amazon, ...](and forget to delete your backup copy). Then suggest to the next guy he do the same thing. This will take all of the money off of the table for RS and reduce their catalog value to 0.

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Poster: drspark61 Date: Aug 22, 2010 9:31pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

The thing to do would be to put all the shows up on an offshore torrent site like The Pirate's Bay. The casual listener is unlikely to make the effort to obtain shows in this way, but at least the material would remain in circulation.

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Poster: adamelijah Date: Aug 22, 2010 10:07pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

er-the material is available on dozens of other sites. I won't list them here, but plenty of places. If history's any guide, Radio Spirits isn't going to go after everyone who has some Sam Spade on their site or Burns and Allen, rather they'll file a few DMCA notices with Archive.org and with a few sites that care to act on it, but even the Shadow which they claimed before this is available on countless websites.

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Poster: RadioMan52 Date: Aug 25, 2010 2:04pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

You are correct that they are available at other sites unfortunately RS and others of the same ilk have sent letters and funds to the main search engine providers to basically blank out many of the “unofficial” sites that have not kowtowed to their demand letters and are still permitting downloads the only sites that you get on the main are his…...
It still is a puzzling mystery on how he can claim that he owns the rights to something that was in the public domain and freely available way before he even opened up the “Spirits” BS when he was in college, If I remember he even stated in a few of his radio programs that he was obtaining the material by FTP download from “Bulletin Boards” remember them?
So if you want to get some of the material it looks like we may have to resort to the “torrent” system as a get even BBS to Torrent, full circle as far as I can see

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Poster: adamelijah Date: Aug 25, 2010 4:19pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

Regarding Radio Spirits paying off the search engines. They're really not doing all that well. I did a search for "The Shadow Old Time Radio" on Google and there are two sites with nearly 60 episodes right near the top, with Radio Spirits in 10th place.

There are a lot of nasty things that go with Torrents. I think that's kind of a last resort for anything.

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Poster: fedupwithgarbage Date: Sep 6, 2010 9:29am
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

Then by all means abisynthe I believe YOU should pull all of the OTR you've ever uploaded and never come here again. PLEASE, never come here again.

It's exactly this "tuck tail between legs and hide" philosophy that will eventually shut this whole web site down and all of this rare and historical media will be lost to everyone but a few wealthy collectors.

Thanks

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Poster: abisynthe Date: Nov 6, 2010 2:57am
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

I have pulled a LOT of OTR I uploaded, because who needs a hassle? You'd expect me to be Joan of Arc. You were mistaken.

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Poster: abisynthe Date: Sep 7, 2010 12:51am
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

Sometimes wishing isn't any better than pooping. A guy would wish that these titles would be public domain and freely available on the archive. Plop.


This post was modified by abisynthe on 2010-09-07 07:51:07

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Poster: jeffzkrazie Date: Sep 7, 2010 5:57pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

Pooping? really? dang!

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Poster: abisynthe Date: Nov 6, 2010 2:21am
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

If you guys want the bottom line on this stuff. Sound recordings prior to 1972 have no federal legal protection and no statutory punitive damages.

That would lead you to common law copyrights, which you'd have to sue violators in a state court.

It is probably questionable that RS invoked DMCA takedowns for works that absolutely have no federal protection.

It would be expensive and a half for RS to actually sue anyone in 50 states. The result would probably be varied.

If this were federal law, trademark and personality rights cannot keep a work out of the public domain. We have the uncertainty of state courts with sound recordings prior to 1972.

Is any of this stuff public domain? No. It has been relegated to state courts to determine the copyright status of sound recordings before 1972 until 2047. I will be dead by then, but maybe I should have a time capsule on 60 year old media ;)

Could you get sued? Mostly this stuff was abandoned in the 70's. Amari probably bought the "rights" to this stuff for a 6 pack. I know Mediabay has used tape vendors to get the materials they use and then harassed the people the bought them from.

Are any sound recordings prior to 1972 public domain? NO.

Is it likely that a state court would award damages for materials that are commercially worthless? Again NO.

Would a corp just wash this in bankruptcy if it happened? Of course. Without federal punitive damages, a lawsuit would not be worth it.

I think RS should just concentrate on giving bookstore visitors high quality (it's been slipping) recordings and quit paying a pimply lawyer.

Some of the materials that remain unclaimed by Radio Spirits are Basil Rathbone Sherlock Holmes episodes which they do not claim, but offer extremely high quality recordings. I recommend them.

It is by offering a quality product, not suing, that is their business. I have RS CD's.

I will never, ever buy another one.

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Poster: adamelijah Date: Aug 21, 2010 5:36pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

On the bright side, we know the extent of the damage now. At least what they have so far.

To be honest, some of these shows (Lum and Abner, Green Hornet, Jack Benny, Sam Spade), there's some money in. Others I can't see how they hope to sell. (On Stage, Witches Tales, The Falcon.)

As to what we do the answer is consumer action and negative PR. Don't buy from Radio Spirits and there should be anti-RS site and articles put up. If I don't miss my guess, the company is probably on the verge of financial oblivion. This is the type of desperate things a company does when its in trouble. In the tight economy, people can't afford to shell out money for their overpriced sets

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Poster: coolcatdaddy Date: Aug 22, 2010 5:53am
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

Again, keep in mind that part of the material has ownership claimed directly by RS and part of it by the estates of various personalities.

RS could be getting pressured by the estates to go after material being posted they feel infringes their rights.

There was an article in the LA Times back in the early 2000s about one of RS's rounds of take-down notices and the controversy over otr rights and copyrights. In the article, Armari, who was the head of the company at the time, trotted out a writer for a popular radio sitcom and their claims were based on a contract with him. The elderly writer praised Armari's work and how he was so glad to be getting a check.

It's a wonderful quaint little picture until you dug a little deeper - this writer had no claims to rights on the series. It was a work for hire and he didn't own the program.

After Armari left the company, I believe that RS did back off on some of the contracts they held because they didn't feel the case for them was very strong. However, I still think that some estates they're dealing with are being a bit broad in what they claim to have rights to.

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Poster: drspark61 Date: Aug 19, 2010 5:42pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

I looked at the list of presumably threatened shows in XMinusOne's review and have been systematically grabbing anything of interest from that. I got all of the Scarlet Queen episodes just in the nick of time.

It will be a shame to lose the OTRR collections of the Dragnet and X Minus One, if Radio Spirits makes a claim on those as well. With all of the research and background material, photos, scripts, etc., those are extraordinary resources. Worth paying for easily -- amazing that they're here for free.

I see that Radio Spirits also sells Johnny Dollar collections, so I wonder if the OTRR collection of that here is also in jeopardy.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffLum Edwards Date: Aug 19, 2010 5:48pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

I think that if they were going to claim them they would have done so. I think R$ has some sort of claim to the shows removed though I do not know how strong or of what type the claims may be. I am certain that copyrights do not exist for at least some of the shows gone. What may be is that R$ has went to the estates of these people and made a deal to license the Name and Likeness offically.

>>>From http://www.falconpicturegroup.com/AboutUs.html


Over the past 20 years, Amari has licensed more than 60,000 radio shows and has entered into business relationships with numerous companies, owners and estates including: CBS, MGM, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Westwood One, NBC, The Frank Sinatra Estate, The Alfred Hitchcock Estate, Broadway Video, The Ray Bradbury Estate, Goldenbooks, Classic Media, TV Guide, The Smithsonian Institution, The Orson Welles Estate, The Leslie Charteris Estate, Conde Nast Publications, The Bing Crosby Estate, Larry Harmon Pictures, MCA Universal, The Jack Benny Estate, The George Burns & Gracie Allen Estate, The Abbott & Costello Estate, Archie Comics, The Conan Doyle Estate, The Red Skelton Estate, The Milton Berle Estate, The Jimmy Stewart Estate, American Movie Classics, Edgar Rice Burroughs, Inc., The Humphrey Bogart Estate, DC Comics. Mr. Amari has also negotiated endorsement agreements with many celebrities including: Walter Cronkite, Andy Williams, George Burns, Ray Bradbury, Wes Craven and Jerry Lewis. <<<


Holding the rights to a valid trademark doesnt always mean the shows cannot be PD. Take Superman for example, Likely one of the most guarded trademarked names but there are sure enough PD cartoons here on IA. R$ also left intact the 15 pages of Superman OTR.

In my opinion These are mostly shadow claims to phantom rights. Would they hold up under a court case. Dunno but I am not the one going to pick a fight with the "800 pound Gorilla".

Mike D.

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Poster: adamelijah Date: Aug 19, 2010 7:34pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

I think you're right. One thing that makes me slightly less worried about Dragnet or Yours Truly Johnny Dollar is that Radio Archives is selling sets of both already. Radio Archives is a prime competitor in the high end CD market, so it seems if they were going to try and corner Dragnet, they'd get their "rights" enforced over there. However, I've already all 14 Johnny Dollar CDs downloaded and getting the last of Dragnet tonight...just in case.

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Poster: Scott Bot Date: Aug 26, 2010 6:02am
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

I reckon I'd better download all of 'Speed Gibson of the International Secret Police' before someone at Radio Spirits realizes they saw Floyd the Barber on Andy Griffith once and that gives them exclusive rights to anything Howard McNear was in...

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Poster: MrGranger Date: Aug 23, 2010 12:13pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

Sad that so many of these are gone from here. I couldn't get the 3rd set of The Falcon, that sucks that it's gone. I've got to check an old hard drive to see if I can find Cinnamon Bear. Luckily I started downloading files so I could listen on my iPod. I think OTR audience has grown a lot since archive.org and some podcasts starting playing them. They really will only survive if people freely share them, the audience is very small for those willing to pay.

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Poster: Poe1809 Date: Aug 25, 2010 6:41pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

Don't know about the thrid set of Falcon, but Cinnamon Bear readily available at any number of other sites. You just need to do a little extra work to find what you're looking for now that this public domain robbery has begun again

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Poster: Kevin VandeWettering Date: Feb 19, 2013 9:58am
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What Is Gone

No sound recordings are in the public domain.

http://www.pdinfo.com/Copyright-Law/Public-Domain-Sound-Recordings.php

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Poster: PDpolice Date: Feb 19, 2013 11:50am
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What was taken

Its true! I read it on a commercial website on the Internet! They cannot post anything but the absolute truth.
I wish the Nigerian prince would hurry with my money though.

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Poster: Kevin VandeWettering Date: Feb 19, 2013 4:35pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What was taken

Other references:

ISBN:978-1413317213

The Public Domain: How to Find & Use Copyright-Free Writings, Music, Art & More.

Read this government document about the desirability of bringing pre-1972 sound recordings under federal jurisdiction. Start reading at about page 20.

http://www.copyright.gov/docs/sound/pre-72-report.pdf

From the copyright.gov website section 301c:

With respect to sound recordings fixed before February 15, 1972, any rights or remedies under the common law or statutes of any State shall not be annulled or limited by this title until February 15, 2067.

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap3.html#301



This post was modified by Kevin VandeWettering on 2013-02-20 00:35:04

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Poster: PDpolice Date: Feb 19, 2013 5:06pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What was taken and who helps drive the getaway car.

The AFRS recordings that are the original material for most of the OTR files here are certainly in the Public Domain. Do any transcriptions of non-copyrighted Radio shows fall under the Audio Recordings copyright as you suggest? A reading of the legal definition of Audio Recording indicates they do not.
But I had forgotten to give the proper greeting. Hark to the assistant Noodnix Lodge leader! I suggest a search on Kevin VandeWettering and Jory2 before following any of their legal advice.

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Poster: Kevin VandeWettering Date: Feb 19, 2013 7:17pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What was taken and who helps drive the getaway car.

Please provide some reference which says "A reading of the legal definition of audio recordings indicates they do not".

Here's a piece of case law:

http://www.osbar-ils.org/articles/NewYorkCommonLawCopyright.pdf

The court held that even though the sound recording in question was public domain in the country of origin (UK), and the sheet music was public domain in the US that the sound recording was still protected under New York state common law until 2067.

As far as AFRS recordings: Were the sound recordings "works of the federal government"? I don't think so. Most of the shows of the day were broadcast on Armed Forces Radio. That means they got broadcast rights. It doesn't mean the US government created it or owned it.

Here's Stephen Fishman. I linked his book above.

http://www.nolo.com/law-authors/stephen-fishman.html

He writes law books for NOLO. He says:

No pre-1972 sound recordings are in the public domain.

I suggest you crack a book instead of exercising your blow hole.


This post was modified by Kevin VandeWettering on 2013-02-20 03:17:57

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Poster: PDpolice Date: Feb 20, 2013 1:38am
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What was taken and who helps drive the getaway car.

Your quick Google search is fun to do and does make postings look very authoritative. It seems your goal is have people mistakenly believe that the opinions posted here are valid legal documents and at some point stop them from posting any content.
Do the Noodnix have a plan to host pay only sites for our files when you stop the Archive or is this still just retribution for what you think happened a couple of years ago?
Please explain why you feel compelled to have the Archive close and us to pay you for the files we have placed here.
No Google search links please.

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Poster: Kevin VandeWettering Date: Feb 20, 2013 3:52pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What was taken and who helps drive the getaway car.

The valid legal opinions here are the case law I pointed to, section 301 at the copyright office and a book written by a legal expert who writes books for NOLO that I own.

Find me something on the other side of the argument. I'd like to be on the other side of this argument. Even OTRR admits:

In summary, the copyright situation is more complex than the simple question of whether the old time radio recordings are under federal statutory copyright. There are also issues of common law copyright and state statutory copyright, and the underlying literary copyrights of the scripts.

http://otrrlibrary.org/copyright2.html

This post was modified by Kevin VandeWettering on 2013-02-20 23:52:44

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Poster: PDpolice Date: Feb 20, 2013 3:45pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What was taken and who helps drive the getaway car.

I am unsure as to why you edited your reply three times this afternoon. A moment ago it was declaring your undying love for the Archive and apologizing for your misdeeds. Now you are spouting copyright gibberish containing many words and offensive content.
Be gone, vile thing!

I hope you know the meaning of that word!

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Nolo

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Poster: Kevin VandeWettering Date: Feb 20, 2013 4:11pm
Forum: oldtimeradio Subject: Re: What was taken and who helps drive the getaway car.

Because I was trying to be concise.

http://www.nolo.com

I can see you would get no love. I like IA and the OTRR collections here. I had some stuff pulled myself. OTRR lost some certified collections that were a lot of trouble to make. Do either of us have a legal leg to stand on to file a counter notice? No. Because it's not public domain.


This post was modified by Kevin VandeWettering on 2013-02-21 00:11:51